new stat ICM Equity $ (Holdem/Omaha Tournament Hand)

[LucasGrijander]

Hello

I would lile to know more about the meaning of the new stat ICM Equity $ (Holdem/Omaha Tournament Hand)

Also whether this new stat is for classic tournaments (1st, 2nd, 3rd places paid) or DONs tournaments

Thanks

[zubs1aa]

Hello

I would lile to know more about the meaning of the new stat ICM Equity $ (Holdem/Omaha Tournament Hand)

Also whether this new stat is for classic tournaments (1st, 2nd, 3rd places paid) or DONs tournaments

Thanks

Me too- sounds useful. How do we ues it? ;)

[WhiteRider]

I've asked for an explanation from the development team.

[zubs1aa]

I've asked for an explanation from the development team.

LOL OK I don't really get this concept I guess.

But you would think that when a new function is developed be it a stat or viewer or whatever, it would be documented for the users lol

If we don't know what it is or does - and therefore ignore it's announcement as many probably did because the description meant nothing to them, might as well not develop it????

Backwards way of saying.... please much better release documentation! existing release notes are really sparse and tend to be only meaningful if you already know what id being talked about...

[Yogi Rob]

ICM (Independent Chip Modeling) stats are used for determining what your current chips are worth in prize money during a tournament. These stats are designed for any 1 table tourney but can be applied to final table situations too. The tournament summary MUST be filled in for results to appear. With ICM you can quickly determine a "fair deal" (with the assumption that all player's skill level are equal) should players agree to end a tourney early. ICM stats are expressed in $ value or % (Prize pool %).

For simplicity here is an example with a $20 DON tourney*. At the very start all players have equal chip stacks and are considered equal.

player, chips, ICM eq, ICM eq%
---------------------------------------
p1, 1500, 20, 10
p2, 1500, 20, 10
p3, 1500, 20, 10
p4, 1500, 20, 10
p5, 1500, 20, 10
p6, 1500, 20, 10
p7, 1500, 20, 10
p8, 1500, 20, 10
p9, 1500, 20, 10
p10, 1500, 20, 10

Here we see all players are worth $20 or 10% of the prize pool.

Now at the bubble:

player, chips, ICM eq, ICM eq%
---------------------------------------
p1, 2320, 39.36, 19.68
p2, 2965, 39.56, 19.78
p3, 1560, 39.15, 19.57
p4, 3335, 39.71, 19.85
p5, 4710, 39.88, 19.94
p6, 110, 2.35, 1.18

Even though p5 has 2x the chips of p1 their ICM stats are near equal due to the prize structure and the presence of p6. In a 50%-30%-20% SNG the ICM values would be very different with a much higher bias to the tall stack.

*DON (Double or Nothing tourney) starts with 10 players and ends when 5 are left. Surviving player's entries are doubled.

[zubs1aa]

ICM (Independent Chip Modeling) stats are used for determining what your current chips are worth in prize money during a tournament.

I know all about ICM. :)

I think you are saying that you have added ICM-based stats based on release notes.
I was asking what stats you added, and where in PT can they be used. and once I figure that out, then I might/might not need the value behind it if it isn't obvious.

So a list of all ICM-related stats and where in the program you can add them would be appreciated. I can't use em if I don't know where they are.

[kraada]

The new stats are ICM Equity and ICM Equity % (as a percentage of the prize pool). They're in the Holdem Tournament Hand section, and can be added to any hold'em tournament report that shows details on individual hands. So the Known Starting Hands Detail report (bottom half of the Hands tab), Tournament Hands report (bottom half of Tournament tab), and Position Hands Detail report (bottom third of Positions tab) are the ones you're most likely to use it in. Or of course any custom report in the HTH section.

[FDSaussure]

There appears to be significant problems with these statistics. From what I can see the statistics appear to try give your ICM calculated $EV or PP%EV at the end of the hand. Two bugs have shown themselves to me whilst I've browsed some tournaments I played today:

(1) The most major bug. The statistics only appear to work at all showing in tournaments I cashed in. I created a new ICM Equity statistic without the => 0 formatting restriction (obviously you can't have negative prizepool equity, even at 0 chips) and the tournaments that I did not cash in appear to show a constant -6.00 (both $EV and %) for every single hand. This number is not related to the buyins or anything else I can see.

(2) In the tournaments I did cash in the value for the final hand is off. In one occasion it showed slightly above 1st place $EV after a win, another occasion there is a "right hand side of an operation must be compatible error" after I lost to take 2nd. And in all occasions the 2nd/3rd place finish is shown as having 0 equity rather than 2nd/3rd place prize equity.

[kraada]

Please report both of these issues (we would prefer it if you put them in different tickets as it would help us keep track of the bugs more easily) so that we can get these both fixed.

[Yogi Rob]

There appears to be significant problems with these statistics. From what I can see the statistics appear to try give your ICM calculated $EV or PP%EV at the end of the hand.

Correct, ICM stats are currently calc'd based on end of hand chip stacks. This might be changed.

Two bugs have shown themselves to me whilst I've browsed some tournaments I played today:

(1) The most major bug. The statistics only appear to work at all showing in tournaments I cashed in. I created a new ICM Equity statistic without the => 0 formatting restriction (obviously you can't have negative prizepool equity, even at 0 chips) and the tournaments that I did not cash in appear to show a constant -6.00 (both $EV and %) for every single hand. This number is not related to the buyins or anything else I can see.

You certainly don't need to cash in a tournament for ICM stats to work. The internal -6 error is due to no prizes entered in the summary. In the future we will have error messages that will help explain why ICM can't be calc'd.

(2) In the tournaments I did cash in the value for the final hand is off. In one occasion it showed slightly above 1st place $EV after a win, another occasion there is a "right hand side of an operation must be compatible error" after I lost to take 2nd.

We really need Hand Histories and summaries to see these problems in action. Please include this in the ticket.

And in all occasions the 2nd/3rd place finish is shown as having 0 equity rather than 2nd/3rd place prize equity.

Yes, 0 chips showing 0 equity will be fixed ASAP.

Thanks for this post.